NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby andyh877 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:19 am

clee wrote:The lens covers are a totally different animal Jon .
I could mould your mutes in the garage on a tiny manual machine with a two piece tool all day long and get consistant results
The lens covers will require so much more in every aspect .They are a very large cosmetic item in clear polycarbonate ....It will require very careful moulding on a very large press ,750tonne clamping pressure .Part feed position and flow length paths are crucial along with mould temps etc etc etc ....Polycarb is a very tough material to mould correctly and cosmetic items are a particular headache .
I know from experience just how awkward an item this will be to produce ...the tooling is only the start of the issues I'm afraid .

Not wanting to "wee wee" on any bonfires but I've been in the industry for 25 years ....I have another option but have held off pressing the button on it for a while as others always seem to be 'about' to get stuff done but it never happens .That's not a dig ,just reality ,these things are always more involved than it first seems and getting people to stump up any development deposits is nigh on impossible .

Tooling ...we used to budget on 25% extra correction costs on any far east tooling when it landed in the UK .Mouldings ...you can get a crate of shite quite easily .OK on a 2p item ...not so on one that will cost £100


he speak true words..... no BS..... as I have been supplying automotive polycarb parts for a few years now.... what lee says is totally correct
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby mettersl » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:50 pm

Andy,
China and Taiwan are completely different places, I agree on china, quality is hard, Taiwan it's much easier, the fact the full name is Taiwan roc (Republic of china) and that it's bigger neighbour is still threatening to invade does mean many people confuse the two.
Clee I agree,
you need a big press for this...it's not a manumold item or something a drain pipe manufacturer could tackle, but let's not pour water (or other fluids on this) until we've seen the samples.its good someone is trying to source such an in demand item.
Lee
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby mellowyellowa610 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:50 pm

Quite a few of the Lotus guys want to change the rear lights and number plate plinth to a one piece panel with round rear lights in (like a late V8 Esprit). It actually is an improvement on the Elan as the asp end isn't the prettiest on that car. I've been playing with a V8 panel on an Elan this week and it isn't that far off fitting but does need a fair bit of modification. The ideal thing would be to either get this sorted or new fibreglass light mouldings in the shape of the original lights but with round rear lights in. Hopefully bringing a version of this product to market would free up a load of second hand rear lights (both GTA and A610 as there are quite a few 610 style lights on M100's now). Obviously the second option would also fit Alpine's but I'm not convinced they would work particularly well.
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby andyh877 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:28 am

mettersl wrote:Andy,
China and Taiwan are completely different places, I agree on china, quality is hard, Taiwan it's much easier, the fact the full name is Taiwan roc (Republic of china) and that it's bigger neighbour is still threatening to invade does mean many people confuse the two.
Clee I agree,
you need a big press for this...it's not a manumold item or something a drain pipe manufacturer could tackle, but let's not pour water (or other fluids on this) until we've seen the samples.its good someone is trying to source such an in demand item.
Lee

I've moved stuff from china and far east into uk and know the problems with quality especially when one supermarket sent a whole container full of product straight back one day.....

for the rear lights I have contact at the original manufacturer and they will remake new complete units in a batch of 100 pairs, but I'm not prepared to take the financial risk on going down that road I'm afraid as I know it will take an eternity to shift them.
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby clee » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:59 am

... ways round things and other options but .......The outer clear cover is the one here and I already have a pair up with the guys that do the headlamp glasses for me .They are confident we can do something .
The next issue whatever happens with the outer is that the inner case mounting bosses are always knackered .... Andy's option is the only way to get new complete units and we all know that is never going to happen .

For the Alpeeeen guys at least I can't see many, if any going for something that does not look OE .

My plan was to get the outers made as close to OE as possible ,repair rear bosses/mountings and fit outer then offer them fully rebuilt on a service exchange basis .No massive tooling costs but extra assembly work ...The last part will apply whatever way the outers are produced ,the only difference would be the way the outer is secured to the inner and TBH the OE way is not really the best on old brittle 25 year old plastic .

Again not wanting to "wee wee" on chips but I've looked at the moulding route and there is just too much money and risk involved at all stages to do it properly .
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby jon_viola » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:25 am

Lee can you let me know what you think is required for the complete units back and front? I'll ask them for a rough quote for mould costs.

In terms of materials and precision to get exactly the right sound and copy on the mutes we had to carry out a full chemical analysis of the plastics used and then reproduced with 5 versions as obviously the original we were copying was 25 years old so had "gone off" slightly.

If you can let me know and also the tooling you thing needed i'll ask them what they have.
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby clee » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:41 am

It's a non starter Jon ,honestly .

I can give you a fairly accurate cost to get the tooling done here on a shoestring ....the tooling materials, ali billets alone to do fronts and back would be over 10k before you switched on the CNC .Digitisng the existing units for CAD data ...2.5k .Tooling estimate for 4 components 60/70 k min
Then you need to find a moulder that can do that size of tooling on short runs ...Processing polycarb is one of the hardest .It does not flow well and you need optical clarity,cosmetic appearance etc .

I spent 15 years freelance designing tooling for the Automotive industry .Prototype tooling for crashtests and redesigning components directly from source to make them mouldable .
I would have charged 4k for product/tool design + would insist on a mould flow analysis of both parts before I even started ......
If you are really bored then google ,polycarb moulding ...jetting flow marks ,weld lines etc etc .....Grandma eggs :wtf
I did a lot of work for these guys back in the day and still have contacts there for this sort of thing but it is not a cheap exercise .
http://www.rapitypes.com/index.html

Would you like me explain this to you :MoreSarc :Mass
Image

Mutes are in a polyprop or similar ? very easy flowing ,black and tiny and zero complexity from a tooling and moulding pov .


If anyone even thinks they want to do it then my advice would be to phone up Andy and pay him for 100 units direct from the original supplier who already has all the tooling and expertise .I bet it would be a tenth of the costs I just quoted and still far cheaper than the Taipei connection :up :up
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby jon_viola » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:05 am

Lee not trying to tell anyone there job just trying to help.

If Andy already has the contact why don't all the clubs get together and make an order? The economies of scale would be much better surely....
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby clee » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:17 am

Just pullin ya puddin ya puddin but you get the point :Cheer

IT WONT HAPPEN !!!
How many times have we tried on various things ? Not enough people are willing to stump up the cash ...if any .
The only way is for someone to get Nike and just ......
I have had a few things made mainly because I needed them myself .Headlamp covers ,TRE adapters ,rollcage ,polycarb window sets .Then I try and recoup by offering it but I've never made it pay .

I will be getting the rear covers remade myself my way because I need them for 3 or 4 cars .The only reason I haven't as yet was the conflict with others but I've been here before and it's another year down the road ....
I will also get them to look at the rear screen with vents/naca ducts for the rats' racer .
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby Dave Williams » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:02 pm

@andyh ....what price was quoted for the OEM units ? Out of interest...
I guess something like £15k- 40k for 100 pairs ? or higher ???

Given the OEM have all the sunk costs (and can do it)....it has to be the best hope.
I would expect in this club we can amass demand for 50 pairs..depends on price....
It is just bankrolling the operation..Mr Dell ? anything in the club coffers ?
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby andyh877 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:57 am

Dave Williams wrote:@andyh ....what price was quoted for the OEM units ? Out of interest...
I guess something like £15k- 40k for 100 pairs ? or higher ???

Given the OEM have all the sunk costs (and can do it)....it has to be the best hope.
I would expect in this club we can amass demand for 50 pairs..depends on price....
It is just bankrolling the operation..Mr Dell ? anything in the club coffers ?


I've been here before.... everyone wants but when it comes to the crunch of stumping up the cash on deadline day you probably get 30% really committing.... down the tube it goes and time completely wasted, perfect example....

A610 oem brake disks fire sale giveaway price..... 2 people from the forum bought.... the support isn't there...
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby Dave Williams » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:00 am

Andy...Yes i hear you..difficult...but how much cash would it take...ballpark ?
(if the price is reasonable..it will just be difficult...if high then near impossible)
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby jon_viola » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:19 pm

Anyone got a photo of the light cluster?

Whole/front/rear?

Before you ask yes I have read above several times but before all that was posted had mentioned it to Taiwan who have asked for photos.


No harm in seeing what they say at the very least....
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby Dave Williams » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:29 pm

Jon...as turbodog mentioned 2 for sale on eBay...search "m100 rear light"...and there are pictures there
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Re: NEW REAR LIGHT COVERS GTA

Postby jon_viola » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:18 pm

Right. As I've moved and my car is still in London can anyone tell me the approx LxHxD of the covers? Weight? Is the original material poly prop or something else?

With this info my lot will give very rough estimates.

Cheers

Jon
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